Religion: General

[Admin]

Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:07 pm

Cris wrote:

My two cents: As long as the worship did not become convoluted, dogmatic or turn into some version of "man's religion," I think that Terrapyres might well choose to worship with others, rather than on their own. However, I have no doubt that every Terrapyre would have a personal and intimate relationship with God which need no intercession, explaination or companionship in the form of others to be completely fulfilling. I cannot imagine a Terrapyre who is not able to hear God's voice with perfect clarity. I agree that they wouldn't need any kind of church to talk with God, nor would they seek one out.

Cris

[Admin]

Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:18 pm

Cris wrote:

Abbie,

I consider "Baptist" to be an organized religion and therefore a denomination, in that it has a set of beliefs and practices that differ from other religions and demoninations. For example, the idea of baptism in Catholicism and for Baptists is completely different.

Wikipedia defines "Baptist" as a demonination: "Baptist is a term describing individuals belonging to a Baptist church or a Baptist denomination. The name is derived from a conviction that followers of Jesus Christ are commanded to be baptised (by being immersed in water) as a public display of their faith, and thus most adherents reject infant baptism. While the term "Baptist" has its origins with the Anabaptists, and was sometimes viewed as pejorative, the denomination itself is historically linked to the English Dissenter or Separatist or Nonconformism movements of the 16th century."

Do you consider yourself to be a member of the Baptist church, for example? Do you think that Baptism is your religion or your faith? This is a fascinating point you raise, Abbie. Please educate me to your way of thinking.

Cris

[Admin]

Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:58 pm

MG wrote:

Yes, I am a member of the church; I feel that being a member of the Church (Church collectively, meaning, all Christians who have like faith even if they do not attend a Baptist church) is important. There is some degree to which some people are going to more identify with one set of beliefs as opposed to another (for instance, someone who goes to a nondenominational church but who personally is a believer in Christ).

But, I am not a Christian because I am Baptist. I am not Baptist simply because I am a Christian. I go to a Baptist church, and am a member there, because I identify with the beliefs and doctrine of this church. If independent fundamental Baptists ever ceased to believe or hold to the doctrines and theology that I believe to be true, I would cease to be a Baptist.

That is my only point; for religion, though perhaps in dictionary meaning remains the same, has come to mean a system of actions, beliefs, or both by which a person attempts to gain entrance into heaven. Considering that I could never have gotten myself into heaven by anything that I did, I believe this definition to be...shall we say, insufficient? I mean no disrespect, of course, to anyone who holds a different view of the word religion; this is simply what it has always meant to me and why I avoid using the word.

As for the issue of baptism, the term "Baptist" was coined not by Baptists themselves, but by others who made an issue of what we believe to be the Bible's teaching on this issue. Baptism is not something we need to get into heaven, for the thief on the cross next to Jesus was never baptized and yet when he believed and had faith in Jesus the Lord said he would be in Paradise, or heaven, that very day with him. Baptism is simply a way of openly identifying with the Body of Christ, with Christ himself, and (in the process of descending, immersion, and ascending) Christ's death, burial and resurrection. It's just a symbol, a way of saying "I'm on his side now," and that is all. Baptists often include church membership with baptism because (presumably) when you identify with the Body of Christ you would want to also be a part of the local [called-out assembly], or church. Are there non-Baptists who practice the same sort of baptism? Of course. Again, the word Baptist is simply a label we embrace because it accurately describes the core beliefs of our gathering, and that is the only purpose of this.

Someone looking into my faith from the outside might be fooled into thinking that Christians of the fundamental sort live by some sort of "rule book" and that their life is categorized by a system of rules, do this, don't do that, etc. etc. And of course, as with all stereotypes, it is true that some do this. At the heart of our beliefs, the core, however, is the realization that these sorts of structures and systems are futile in the end, and that each person must live their lives as they believe God would have them to, and along the way he will correct minor issues of life, faith, practice, and behavior by the Holy Spirit's conviction.

Forgive me if I sounded like I was recoiling from something...again, I have not necessarily been taught this, but religion has always seemed to me to fall so short of what a relationship with God really is.

Perhaps we should just make our own definition of what we will use the word "religion" for, and avoid all this mess and conjecture. *chuckle* Sorry for opening a can of worms! xD

[Admin]

Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:16 pm

MG wrote:

p.s. - I do feel that Terrapyres would need some sort of Christian companionship. Though of course they are not humans and share different weaknesses, Paul states in the book of Hebrews that Christians should exhort [meaning encourage] and provoke [meaning literally prod, or to incite] other Christians to good works (for the purpose of spreading their beliefs and pleasing God).

So no, as I do not need an earthly intercessor between God and me, neither would a Terrapyre. I can pray directly to the Father and He hears me, and we have a personal relationship. However, I am part of a church because others can help me grow by talking about the Scriptures and how God has worked in their lives, and I can in turn help others. It's kinda like a hospital, but you're a doctor and a patient at the same time.

[Admin]

Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:26 am

Cris wrote:

"MG wrote:
Yes, I am a member of the church; I feel that being a member of the Church (Church collectively, meaning, all Christians who have like faith even if they do not attend a Baptist church) is important. There is some degree to which some people are going to more identify with one set of beliefs as opposed to another (for instance, someone who goes to a nondenominational church but who personally is a believer in Christ)."


Okay. I am beginning to follow you here.


"MG wrote:
But, I am not a Christian because I am Baptist. I am not Baptist simply because I am a Christian. I go to a Baptist church, and am a member there, because I identify with the beliefs and doctrine of this church. If independent fundamental Baptists ever ceased to believe or hold to the doctrines and theology that I believe to be true, I would cease to be a Baptist."


Yes. This makes perfect sense. Thank you for clarifying.


"MG wrote:
That is my only point; for religion, though perhaps in dictionary meaning remains the same, has come to mean a system of actions, beliefs, or both by which a person attempts to gain entrance into heaven. Considering that I could never have gotten myself into heaven by anything that I did, I believe this definition to be...shall we say, insufficient? I mean no disrespect, of course, to anyone who holds a different view of the word religion; this is simply what it has always meant to me and why I avoid using the word.."


This is so interesting to me. I agree with the general definition of religion as being a set of beliefs (which may include rituals, actions, etc.) that are shared by a group of individuals and that this group forms a church, but I don't see all Christians as belonging to the same "Church." Personally, I don't consider myself a member of any church for a number of reasons, which intersect with what you're saying.

For example, you say that "I could hever have gotten myslef into heaven by anything that I did." I believe the opposite: I believe that it is *only* my actions that will get me into heaven. I am responsible for my own salvation--that what I do in the time I am in physical form on this Earth shapes what will come after.

I don't believe that any man or woman can claim to speak for God or be a mouthpiece for God. To me, that goes directly against our ability to talk to Christ in a personal, private and intimate way. Humans are, by nature, flawed, and to give someone with that kind of power is, in my opinion, dangerous. No one should want or need to step between you and Christ.

I see Terrapyres as taking this a step farther. Not only do they embrace a Christ-centered religion, but they also carry the Word within each of them. The Living Word isn't like a Bible that has been widely distributed. As EJ has noted earlier in this thread, by and large, Terrapyres don't belong to a religions community or denomination. However, there are exceptions--Terrapyres who participate in a particular religion for community and ritual.



"MG wrote:
As for the issue of baptism, the term "Baptist" was coined not by Baptists themselves, but by others who made an issue of what we believe to be the Bible's teaching on this issue. Baptism is not something we need to get into heaven, for the thief on the cross next to Jesus was never baptized and yet when he believed and had faith in Jesus the Lord said he would be in Paradise, or heaven, that very day with him. Baptism is simply a way of openly identifying with the Body of Christ, with Christ himself, and (in the process of descending, immersion, and ascending) Christ's death, burial and resurrection. It's just a symbol, a way of saying "I'm on his side now," and that is all. Baptists often include church membership with baptism because (presumably) when you identify with the Body of Christ you would want to also be a part of the local [called-out assembly], or church. Are there non-Baptists who practice the same sort of baptism? Of course. Again, the word Baptist is simply a label we embrace because it accurately describes the core beliefs of our gathering, and that is the only purpose of this..."


Many Christian denominations include baptism as an integral part. I understand what you're saying here--labels are useful only to categorize and, I think, help direct individuals to groups or whatever with whom they share common beliefs. But mostly labels are used as a way to separate, stygmatize and persecute.

...
"Quote:
Someone looking into my faith from the outside might be fooled into thinking that Christians of the fundamental sort live by some sort of "rule book" and that their life is categorized by a system of rules, do this, don't do that, etc. etc. And of course, as with all stereotypes, it is true that some do this. At the heart of our beliefs, the core, however, is the realization that these sorts of structures and systems are futile in the end, and that each person must live their lives as they believe God would have them to, and along the way he will correct minor issues of life, faith, practice, and behavior by the Holy Spirit's conviction.

Forgive me if I sounded like I was recoiling from something...again, I have not necessarily been taught this, but religion has always seemed to me to fall so short of what a relationship with God really is.

Perhaps we should just make our own definition of what we will use the word "religion" for, and avoid all this mess and conjecture. *chuckle* Sorry for opening a can of worms! xD"


In general, I think it can be difficult to try and make sense of a demonination from the outside. There are many many aspects of belief and practice that, taken out of context, seem odd or even ridiculous, but context are neither. Unless one has a guide into that religion, I don't think any of us is in aposition to judge another.

So, you don't seem at all like you're "recoiling." I appreciate that you took the time to clarify this and also I think it's great that you know these things about yourself. A strong belief system and community provides a foundation for one's life, which, if lacking, can send someone spinning off in the wrong direction.

Cris

[Admin]

Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:26 pm

Brianne wrote:

Okay, I'll admit it . . . I've been lurking.

<---- Caught

I love where this discussion is going. Abbie, I really love what you've said here, how your church doesn't define your beliefs, you attend there *because* of your beliefs.


"Quote:
For example, you say that "I could hever have gotten myself into heaven by anything that I did." I believe the opposite: I believe that it is *only* my actions that will get me into heaven. I am responsible for my own salvation--that what I do in the time I am in physical form on this Earth shapes what will come after."


I love this. It's so interesting to see how other people believe about this topic. For me, it's a combination - I know that my actions *alone* won't get me into Heaven, there is the necessary element of faith in Christ, and the willingness to do whatever it is that He tells me to do . . . but that also my actions are important. Not to . . . prove myself to Christ, but to live as an example of His work. I try to do what is right, not because I think it will get me into Heaven, but *because* it is right. Because to do otherwise would not be living as an example of His work.


"Quote:
I mean no disrespect, of course, to anyone who holds a different view"


Ditto. About any of this. =] I'm not trying to correct anyone (as I believe no one else is correcting anyone =] ), just throw in my opinion.


"Quote:
but religion has always seemed to me to fall so short of what a relationship with God really is. "



Oh, Abbie, so true . . . So very true.


"Quote:
I do feel that Terrapyres would need some sort of Christian companionship. Though of course they are not humans and share different weaknesses, Paul states in the book of Hebrews that Christians should exhort [meaning encourage] and provoke [meaning literally prod, or to incite] other Christians to good works (for the purpose of spreading their beliefs and pleasing God). "



I always felt that as a reason that Terrapyres lived in lairs . . . because the companionship they have with other Terrapyres would be Christian companionship. Just as I can stand in the kitchen and talk to the people I live with about *anything* . . . not necessarily just religion, faith, Christ . . . . but *anything*. And it *is* Christian companionship. I think I may be talking around in a circle just now . . . but do you understand what I mean? =]


Like I said, I love this conversation that's going on . . . Here's my two or three cents, and I'm going to keep lurking. =]

Brianne

[Admin]

Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:13 pm

MG wrote:

I guess I should have also clarified that I believe a church not to be a place or building, but a group of people.

The Greek word for church, pronounced "ek-lay-SEE-ya" literally means "called-out assembly." Therefore a church is not a place we go, but a group of people to whom we might belong.

So, just because you don't "belong to a church" does not mean you are not part of one. You just don't necessarily attend with a particular band of other believers on a regular basis.

So when I speak of all believers in Christ being part of a universal church, I mean that as the Body of Christ we are part of the same called-out assembly, though we may assemble with smaller, different groups like a particular set of beliefs. While, ultimately, I don't believe that everyone who just believes there is a God is a Christian, I do believe that Christians can come from almost any denomination or set of beliefs...the details of what they believe may vary at the edges, but at the heart their belief in Christ is just the same.

Also, Cris, what you say about what you have done to get yourself into heaven, if you are referring to belief and a relationship with Christ, yes, technically we do do things to get to heaven. For instance I invited Him to become the most important thing in my life and my protector and Savior when I was 4 years old. I wanted to live in heaven with Him, I wanted to know that He was with me all the time. But you know, the fact that Jesus died to assuage His Father's wrath against the sin of mankind, he lived a perfect life on earth before that, and even now is in heaven interceding for me as a heavenly high priest...well, I guess it doesn't seem much when you accept a gift, since all the work to have it ready was done by the other person. But living a life of good works is something I do out of gratitude for my salvation and also to help others see what God has done for me. If you are saying that you believe you can work your way to heaven, then I understand you as well, and we simply disagree (politely of course ) on this matter.

And, Brianne, I agree with your assessment of my comments on fellowship. Lairs are perfect. However I think that even outside of these Lairs Terrapyres would come together (perhaps not every week, as they shun human rituals and the like ) and sing together, letting their voices speak directly to God. They would pray, they would encourage each other to continue untiringly, etc. Not necessarily a church service. Could be, some good friends over for dinner. Whatever it is, if some Terrapyres are so in tune with their relationship directly to God it will spill over into their lives. Happens to me all the time (lol). I'm such a Terrapyre in so many ways. xD

[Admin]

Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:07 pm

Cris wrote:

Thank you for sharing your ideas. It's wonderful that we have so many different backgrounds and can still discuss our belief systems without feeling defensive or the need to try and sway others to our way of thinking.

I appreciate your concise definition of "church," I don't think of myself as a member of the "Church" of Christians, because I cannot walk into any Christian church--whether it be a building or a group of people--and feel welcome. Therefore, I am not part of that community. If belonging to the Body of Christ means that I agree to having someone intercede, interpret or provide a code of conduct for my life, then I don't want to belong. If belonging to the Body of Christ means that I assemble with like-minded "Christakouians" (those who actively hear Christ), then I do belong to to a "church."

Ej, in her blog on 10-26, articulates this better than I possibly could:

"I do not believe that a direct translation of ancient Hebrew texts, written by the hands of man, studied by men’s minds, and (most especially) preached from men’s pulpits, can tell me the word of God. The word – the Word – is either Living Word or man’s word. The historical context and survivalist reasoning behind much of man’s scripture is understandable. But you know what? I still wear mixed fabrics. . . .

I turn questions over to God like people turn pages in a book. I make my decisions from the voice of my Christ in my heart (which is not always what I want to hear) and not the blinders-on murmurings of undereducated, sheltered, cloistered, ignorers of science, nature and the biology of the universe."


Terrapyres, by their very existance, are part of a fellowship. Within that fellowship, there are Terrapyres who choose to participate in a denomination (be it Catholic or Mormon or Baptist, etc.) and there are Terrapyres who are solitary practitioners, who speak to Christ directly on a daily basis and take their guidance from His words alone. These Terrapyres would not need, necessarily, to participate in an organized Christian community because their every waking moment was already completely infused with Christ's presence.

Their "called-out assembly" could therefore, consist of a denomination, if they so chose and it did not conflict with their Terrapyre identity. It could also consist of their lairmates or it could consist of their personal conversations with Christ. I think what's important to remember in terms of Terrapyres is that if they belong to a denomination, they have entered into it having deeply examined its tenents and have also deeply examined their own hearts. If they are still able to serve and hear Christ while participating in the proscribed rituals and accepting the dogma of that denomination, then it's fine.

What we each personally believe informs us, for sure, and it also informs our storytelling. On some level our own personal beliefs don't matter as much as how Terrapyre religion is portrayed in the novels, stories and other materials in the Mardi Gras 3000 universe.

I celebrate our differences and the fact that we don't judge each other and am glad you feel comfortable sharing your beliefs.


Cris

[Admin]

Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:09 pm

Cris wrote:

There's been some discussion about Terrapyres and denomination. There is not reason that a Terrapyre cannot attend church in any denomination. However, there are some guidelines.

1. A Catholic Terrapyre answers first to Christ and then to the Pope.

2. A Greek Orthodox (Russian Orthodox, etc.) Terrapyre answers first to Christ and then to his or her bishop. The Greek Orthodox Pope (also called the Patriarch in Constantinople) is analogous to the pope in that he represents the Eastern Orthodox Church to the world, but he does not now nor has he ever possessed the authority of the popes. He does not have any administrative powers beyond his own territory (patriarchate) and he does not claim infallibility. The individual bishops would be responsible for guiding their own parishoners.

3. A Mormon Terrapyre answers to Christ first and then to the Prophet of the Mormon church.

4. Other Christian Terrapyres who attend church regularly would also answer first to Christ and then to their pastor or local head of church.

All Terrapyres believe in personal relevelation.

Questions? Please ask.

Cris

[Admin]

Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:01 pm

MG wrote:

Well clarified, Cris.

[Admin]

Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:29 pm

Cris wrote:

Thanks, Abbie. It's nice to see you back.

Cris

[Admin]

Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:39 pm

Cris wrote:

I'm working out some of the details of this particular item.

This is what we have so far.

"The Ariel Column is a hand-carved column of granite which is placed in a Terrapyre yard or home. It is most commonly found in homes where children are present because it protects Terrapyre children—prior to Awakening—from detection by other Immortals by making them appear Human. It also protects the unborn child of a Terrapyre and a Human by making the child register as Human. This works better with the mother is Human; but is also commonly used when the mother if Terrapyre.

When a Terrapyre parent creates a column, he (or she) carves favorite passages from the Living Word into the granite, speaking prayers over the stone as the carving takes place. The column is topped with a cross or Ascended Ithcus and then placed in the home or yard.

Because the prayers and passages come from the Living Word, Celestials are not able to see the words. However, their presence registers on the column. Any Celestial within two hundred yards of the column causes the cross of Ascended Ithcus to glow. The Living Word passages glow if any Celestial comes within two hundred feet of the column. In order for the column to be effective, the Terrapyre who carved it must be incredibly faithful. Others, who are related to the children or involved in their protection—Companions, Lairmates, etc.—may also carve prayers into the column, but their protection only works when they are physically present in either the house or the yard."

Does any one object to the distances I've added in the last paragraph?

Do we want to limit the protection that others provide to their physical presence?

Please let me know or comment on what we have so far.

Cris

[Admin]

Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:41 am

JenDiMarco wrote:

Cris, I suppose in order to answer that question we'd need to establish how far away a Terrapyre can feel a Celestial just one his own. We know that immortals can sense each other, but at what distance?

Jennifer

[Admin]

Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:42 pm

AreaneCreator wrote:

Oh, good point. Because obviously we want the column to sense them at a farther distance. Perhaps it glows right before the point when a Terrapyre would sense a Celestial, as a final warning that the Celestial may penetrate the defenses of the column?

[Admin]

Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:07 pm

Cris wrote:

I don't see anything in the Sourcebook right now that delineates the distance at which Immortals can sense each other. Once we establish that, then we can adjust the Column's sensors accordingly.

What do you think the distance might be?

Cris