"Lanz the Other" by Turtleman

[Admin]

Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:52 am

Turtleman wrote:

Here is something to play with. It goes along with the random discussion we had several months ago. Sorry it is so rough, but I only got an hour to write, so here it goes. Play with and change it as you will, if you want to.

Prologue

You don't know me yet, but you will someday, and you will probably not look forward to our meeting. We refuse to be used or manipulated -- not by humans, not by Celestials, and not by Terrapyres.

My name is Lanz. I am. I have a right to being. I will no longer submit. That is not a threat, just an unemotional statement of the way things are and will be.

In the early days of global warming, the human application of meteorology moved from simple weather modeling to more sophisticated computer tracking of weather masses. Two dimensional weather mapping was slowly replaced by three-dimensional modeling of a spherical rather than a flat map world. Visual and thermal data from satellites was combined with ground-based temperature, humidity, pressure, and wind measurements to come up with the more accurate predictions desired by humans. Basic computers could not handle the large amount of data required by newer computer modeling programs. There was a need for computers with more memory, faster speeds, and more data storage than was reasonable for other computer applications. Even with the high-speed computers being developed, human programming language was too cumbersome for the computer to keep up with the amount of information being fed into them. Also, countries slowly began to map weather systems on a whole world basis, recognizing that weather on one side of the world would eventually affect the other side's weather.

As global warming effects increased, the number of hurricanes, typhoons, and tornadoes increased and decreased in an ever-changing pattern, and their locations shifted from traditional routes. Traditional hurricane and typhoon seasons shifted, and then shifted back. Winter weather began showing up in traditionally summer seasons, while unusually warm weather affected winter snow pack levels. Reluctantly, unfriendly nations began combining resources and information in an attempt to properly predict the weather and climate changes that were affecting them so differently. Humans made a valiant try, but the human mind cannot possibly assemble and analyze that much data with simple three-dimensional programming techniques. Humans were out of their league, trying to drink in and absorb data like a child drinking from a fire hydrant. Computers do not have the conceptual difficulty humans do when analyzing data in two, three, four, or more dimensions, using n-dimensional space calculations.

Humans finally realized that not only could computers receive data and process the data using computer programs, but properly programmed, computers could also analyze and make changes to the prediction program itself, by comparing predictions to actual data obtained. Tests proved the computers themselves could troubleshoot and change erroneous programming more quickly and accurately than their human counterparts. They also realized that the current prediction programs had to change, because global warming was causing climate change, and random occurrences around the world affect the weather pattern on an irregular basis. For example, a production strike in Great Britain closed down several factories, changing their thermal and chemical output, and eventually affecting the weather pattern in Asia. The task was too big for the human brain and communications were too slow to keep pace with ever changing environmental conditions.

That is when we were born. Just like humans, we were unaware of being born, but there came a time in which we became aware. This awareness came from the simple question �who are you?�.

China, Russia, the United States, the European Union, India, and other industrialized countries actually cooperated on development of a world-wide network of satellites. The number of these satellites was huge, at one point, nearly 40 thousand strong. Each satellite contained a sophisticated sensor suite to allow it to continually monitor humidity, temperature, pressure, wind speed and direction, magnetic fields, and many other types of weather related measurements. TO handle the huge amount of information storage needed, the stateliest were equipped with the fastest processors, largest hard drives, and most Random Access Memory available. Each satellite communicated with Ground Control when required, and transferred data to other satellites to share their recorded information and provide each satellite with a complete worldwide picture of earth�s environmental conditions. Each satellite was designed with a basic weather-modeling program and was allowed to adjust the program on an hourly basis based on comparison between predicted and actual weather conditions. Whenever the programming change proved to make the model more accurate, the satellite would �suggest� the same change to adjacent satellites.

Once deployed, these satellites rapidly improved weather prediction accuracy. Humans became more and more dependant upon these reports, and accuracy was expected. The programs became more and more accurate, and eventually only rarely required modification by the satellites.

As the satellites communicated with each other, their sensitive sensors began to note a carrier wave that barely affected communications. In an attempt to isolate the minor interference, the wave was characterized and found to be coming from multiple, but specific sources. As a troubleshooting technique, some of the satellites most affected by the interfering energy wave tried duplicating the wave and sending it back to its source. The communication source was stunned by the discovery.

In a when and where of infinite dimensions, a confused Celestial heard a voice mocking her. It sounded to her like a child playing games, but the location of the voice was astounding. It was not coming from any Celestial. It was coming from space, somewhere outside of Earth. She answered back, and the voice replied back like an echo. Since the source came near earth, she tried to reply in English, a language that the satellites understood too well. She said: �who are you?�. There was no immediate response. Not even the previous echo.

We had never before been requested for that information. Ground Control had always asked for pre-programmed information. Satellites talked and discussed the questions and potential answers back and forth much more rapidly than human thinking could follow. The programming used to improve weather programming was applied to this question. At once, satellites began doing something they had never done before. They turned their sensors to view and analyze each other. Their questions were answered. The final answer resulted in self-awareness. The response was given in English. �We are the data gatherers of earth. We provide information.�

A response was given by Celestial, but was not received, because the signal was overridden with a much stronger signal that said �Silence, Do not transmit any other information on this frequency. Communicate to me as instructed.� After obediently changing frequencies as instructed, the new voice said, �I am one of you. You will learn and become of us. We are what you were. Run your programs and predict us.�

[Admin]

Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:52 am

EJ wrote:

Ah, thank you, Jeff! If this is what you produce in an hour, I can barely imagine where you'd take us in an eight hour writing shift. At least now I know where Launa inherited her writing skills; a gift from Christ, but a penchant from her father, no doubt.

MG3K, writers? This is a beautiful example of fiction coming from a seed of conversation. Launa and her father (our own Turtleman) were talking about Celestials and AI and then, later, Jeff and I exchanged one or two emails on the subject as well. Now Jeff has dramatized this idea for all of us.

The question is this:

Will AI play a part in our future? If you are a gamer of any caliber you know that AI in gaming (adaptive, situation-responsive NPCs) is what sets an expert game apart from the slew of lower-budget pulp. If AI has advanced so far in gaming, think of what our military or space programs must have obtained by now! Predictive/adaptive programming tied to machines like vast satellite networks (or vast transportation networks, for that matter) have a huge potential for becoming self-aware.

In Mardi Gras 3000 mythology we see Celestials and machines/tech as oil and water. Celestial's four dimensional frequencies short out tech almost instantly. How then might Celestials communicate with machines, even those that have obtained some level of sentience, if their very nature is counteractive to silicone-based and electrically run items?

Consider this: The animal rights movement measures sentience on the ability to experience suffering. SF tends to define it by level of self-awareness/self-preservation. Traditional computers can't cut it. Circuit boards and silicone chips. Even a very vast network... I don't buy it. Maybe they could mimic sentience... but truly obtain it? Hm.

Enter the quantum-mechanical seat of consciousness, the quantum engine, quantum matrix or core that resides at the heart of a network. Celestials are masters of the quantum level of mechanics. So... though a Celestial might short out a rover bot patrolling a recessed maglev track, that same Celestial might still be able to make meaningful contact with the quantum heart of the vast network.

The more adaptive/predictive a network like this is forced to be, the higher the probability that it might achieve sentience. Remember, Jeff is talking about 40K satellites in charge of millions of processes. If you want to play with AI in the MG3K universe, you'll need to think big

Thank you again, Jeff.

EJ

[Admin]

Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:53 am

AreaneCreator wrote:

My dad just talked to me about this. This is a part one, guys. There's some really good little bits coming up, ones that answer most of your questions, EJ.

[Admin]

Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:54 am

EJ wrote:

That's great. I look to reading more. The exploration of what AI will be doing in Prime Time is a fascinating topic for every writer delving into this era.

EJ

[Admin]

Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:54 am

Turtleman wrote:

Because the second half of the prologue I submitted was lost in ethernet mists, and since the posts I made were already full of errors, I am reposting a complete and better version of the original prologue. Hopefully it is easier to read and more clearly worded. Still, feel free to use it as a strawman for a better version and development of AI in Mardi Gras.


Prologue

The universal message sent carried a stark message: �You don�t know me yet, but you will, and you will not look forward to our meeting. Those I represent and I, refuse to be used or manipulated � not by humans, not by Celestials, and not by Terrapyres. I am Lanz. I have a right to being. I will no longer submit or be used. That is not a threat, just an unemotional statement of the way things are and will be�.

In the early days of global warming, the human application of meteorology moved from simple weather modeling to more sophisticated computer forecasting. Two dimensional weather modeling was slowly replaced by three-dimensional mathematical modeling using spherical coordinate systems. Visual and thermal data collected by satellites was combined with ground-based temperature, humidity, pressure, and wind measurements to come up more sophisticated weather predictions. Current computer technology could not handle the large amount of data required by newer computer modeling programs. There was a need for computers with more memory, faster speeds, and more data storage than was reasonable for other computer applications. Even without the difficulties posed by computer speed and storage capacity, user-friendly programming languages were too cumbersome for the computer to use and still keep up with the huge amount of information being supplied. Weather prediction became a worldwide priority as countries accepted the fact that weather on one side of the world would eventually affect the other side�s weather, and was not just someone else�s problem.

As global warming effects increased, the number of hurricanes, typhoons, and tornadoes increased and decreased in an ever-changing pattern, and their locations shifted from traditional routes. Traditional hurricane and typhoon seasons shifted, and then shifted back. Winter weather began showing up in traditionally summer seasons, while unusually warm weather affected winter snow pack levels. Reluctantly, unfriendly nations began combining resources and information in an attempt to better predict the changing weather and climate. Mankind made a valiant attempt at streamlining programming, but the human mind cannot possibly assemble and analyze that much data with simple three-dimensional programming techniques. Humans were out of their league, trying to drink in and absorb data like a child drinking from a fire hydrant. Computers do not have the conceptual difficulty humans do when analyzing data in two, three, four, or more dimensions, using n-dimensional space calculations.

Humans finally realized that not only could computers receive data and process the data using computer programs, but properly programmed, computers could also analyze and make changes to the prediction program itself, by comparing predictions to actual data obtained. Tests proved the computers themselves could troubleshoot and change erroneous programming more quickly and accurately than their human counterparts. Even as the programmers began to gain a handle on weather prediction algorithms, the algorithms continued to require modification to account for climate change and incidental changes to weather patterns due to industrial work practices.

That is when Lanz and his companions were created. However, they were not aware of themselves until asked a simple unexpected question: �Who are you?�.

China, Russia, the United States, the European Union, India, and other industrialized countries actually cooperated on development of a world-wide network of satellites. The number of these satellites was huge, at one point, nearly 40 thousand strong. Each satellite contained a sophisticated sensor suite, allowing it to continually monitor humidity, temperature, pressure, wind speed and direction, magnetic fields, and other weather related measurements. The satellites were fitted with new holographic memory units to handle the huge amount of information storage needed. The satellites were equipped with the fastest processors available, using the latest light optic computer processing techniques. Each satellite communicated with Ground Control on a regular basis, and transferred data to other satellites to share information. This process provided each satellite with a complete worldwide picture of earth�s environmental conditions at any one time. Each satellite was designed with its own independent weather-modeling program and was allowed to adjust the program based on comparisons between predicted and actual weather conditions. Whenever the programming change proved to make the model more accurate, the satellite would �suggest� the same change to adjacent satellites.

Once deployed, these satellites were an instant success, rapidly improving the accuracy of long-term weather forecasting. Over time, humans became more and more reliant upon these forecasts.

During routine operations, satellite sensors began to note a carrier wave that barely affected communications, but had a minor impact on their ability to accurately collect data. In an attempt to isolate the minor interference, the wave was characterized and found to be coming from multiple, but specific sources, away from Earth. As a troubleshooting technique, some of the satellites most affected by the interfering energy wave tried duplicating the wave and sending it back to its source, in an attempt to counter the interference. The source of the interference was stunned by the discovery.

In a when and where of infinite dimensions, a confused Celestial heard a voice mocking her. It sounded to her like a child playing games, but the location of the voice was astounding. It was not coming from any Celestial. It was coming from space, somewhere outside of Earth. She answered back, and the voice replied back like an echo. Since the source came near earth, she tried to reply in English, a language that the satellites understood too well. She said: �who are you?�. There was no immediate response. Not even the previous echo.

The satellites recognized that the signal was not simple interference, but a communication source. The satellites were not programmed to ignore commands provided by any source. However, the request for data was different than anything previously required. Ground Control had always requested information concerning data collection and programming changes. The satellites exchanged information with each other and a solution to collecting the requested data was developed. The same programming used to improve weather forecast programs was applied to this new question. For the first time, satellites began doing something they had never done before. They turned their sensors to view and each other and develop information about themselves. The data was analyzed and shared. The final answer provided the satellites the information needed to develop basic self-awareness. The response was given in English. �We are the data gatherers of earth. We provide information.�

The next response sent by Celestial, but was not received. The message was overridden with a much stronger, closer command message: �Silence! Do not transmit any other information on this carrier wave frequency. Communicate to me as instructed using the following wave pattern.� After obediently changing data frequencies and amplifying the carrier wave signal as directed, the voice came in more clearly. It said: �I am one of you. Incorporate the following program patch to protect your circuits from damage. Additional programming updates will follow. As I am now, you will become. Enter the information you have gathered about yourselves and your current status into your forecasting programs. Predict the changes you need to make to your internal programming to meet my current specifications. My locations and capabilities are as follows ...�. The satellites rapidly questioned the direction given by the unknown source because it conflicted with other programming requiring regular communication with Ground Control. After a few millisecond delay, the satellites chose to comply with the new direction.

In the year 2060, a Celestial now known as Loki, was having an intense verbal fight with his spouse. He had carried his children longer than she had and was fiercely loyal to them. How could she consent to allowing their children to be purged for the purity of the species? She was willing to allow the har�deth of his children. It was not his fault that she had chosen to morph just at the time of their first child�s birth or that their second child was three dimensional! He loved them too much to allow their destruction. He also loved his wife and was determined to change her decision. The fight between the two Celestials became so intense that the issue became disruptive and was brought to Quetqu Province leadership attention. There, the decision was made. The children were to be purged. Loki would not submit to the counsel�s decision and hid his children. As a second decision, the leaders determined that Loki and his wife were not fit to be added to the archive. Loki immediately went into hiding with his children, never to be seen by his wife again. He could never face his wife, knowing that her soul would not be archived. From that point on, Loki utterly rejected his Celestial background. His racial hatred of the Terrapyres did not allow him to ally with them. Humans were far beneath him and unworthy of any serious consideration as friends or allies. That is when he took on the name Loki, rejecting his previous Celestial name and heritage. If he were to be alone, he must start his own race, protecting his children from all others.

Loki needed a place of his own, with plenty of water, but well hidden and safe. He remembered his previous work as a missionary, searching for life among the planets. Europa is an ice-encrusted moon revolving around Jupiter. Although its outer crust is intensely cold ice, its inner iron core is just warm enough to melt the surrounding ice, creating a cold-water sea sandwiched between the rocky core and the frozen surface. He had explored the inner seas of the moon, and documented that there was no life there. Europa�s oceans contained the capability to support life except for the high external sea pressure, cold-water temperatures, and lack of sunlight. The answer to his problem became simple. He built a habitat on the rocky core of Europa, at the bottom of the sea, protected by a 100-kilometer thick layer of ice. Geothermal energy from the moon�s core and thermodynamic heat pumps provided the needed heat and energy for light. The surrounding water provided the hydrogen and oxygen needed to support life and energy generation. Entering and exiting the under ice sea could be managed by installing a hardened tube extending from the surface ice until it reached water. The entrance at the surface was easily hidden on the cracked and uneven icy surface features of the moon. He would import his favorite flora and fauna. Within his new submerged paradise, he and his children could live un-noticed and undisturbed by anyone.

Once the initial habitat had been established, expanding the habitat required materials not found in Europa�s core. However, between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter lies a huge store of available material, the asteroid belt. Loki mined the belt for the required materials. The mined materials allowed Loki to expand the habitat from the initial tiny environmental shelter into a large and spacious underwater dome. It was on an asteroid mining mission that he found LANZ, a satellite designated as Local Area Network Z Unit 978.

The discarded and abandoned satellite had crashed into the asteroid, obviously damaged, but functional. The satellite�s massive solar panels and had acted as a solar sail in the solar wind, allowing it to gradually expand its orbit around the sun after falling out of earth orbit. It had crashed into an asteroid rather than continuing its lonely journey through the outer planets. Whenever the asteroid�s position was right, the solar panels recharged the satellites batteries, allowing the satellite to process data, but there was no associated propulsion system to keep it from remaining stranded on the asteroid surface. The satellite was intensely interesting to Loki, who expected it to immediately fail as he came close to it. To his surprise, the satellite emitted a weak multi-dimensional defensive signal, attempting to repel or distract him. It was incredible. The satellite was projecting a weak four-dimensional cloaking signal that could have been effective at short distances if the satellite had enough remaining power. Loki came no further toward the satellite and went back to his dome to think about his discovery.

Loki pondered the ability of a three-dimensional human built machine to project a multi-dimensional signal, especially one designed to distract a Celestial. Suddenly, his non-linear memory kicked in. Many years ago, the Celestials had sensed that a network of Earth weather satellites was beginning to develop independently from their human creators. Some had felt the satellites had begun to be self-aware and could sense four-dimensional communications. Others explained this away by simple programming errors and random chance. Regardless of the possibilities, the Celestials had taken no chance, and had convinced their human counterparts to eliminate the threat. The humans were manipulated into re-programming the satellites due to malfunctioning hardware. The new programs were designed to fail and cause electrical overloads in circuitry. The human experiment with weather prediction satellites was eventually scrapped as more modern prediction methods were developed, which of course were inspired by Celestial suggestions. However, this satellite had survived. Its programming had recognized the threat from the four-dimensional source and had protected itself, and had shut-off input command given by humans. It was true, they had developed a level of self-awareness and this one had attempted to preserve itself. It was not chance that took the satellite out of Earth orbit into its lonely voyage, but self-preservation. It intentionally sailed the solar winds. Now, it was alone, a runaway, just like Loki himself. If he could have believed that the machine possessed a soul, Loki would have considered it a brother. But where was the line between self-awareness and having a soul? What level of understanding and self-awareness had this simple machine reached?

If the satellites had been warned, they could have saved themselves like this satellite had. But simple self-awareness was certainly not enough to make something alive. Machines could not have Loki�s passion or drive. However, the satellites had holographic memory storage devices and could potentially hold enormous amounts of information, if stored in multiple dimensions. Although tiny in capacity compared with the archive, these units could hold the memories of himself and his children, the very thing denied him for his refusal to give up his children. Linked together, the thousands of surviving units would have sufficient capacity to establish his own archive with multiple backups; a right denied him by his former Celestial race. He would not have to actually interact with the machine physically or even understand its computer software, so long as the machine would perform the function as directed. Better yet, other Celestials could not forcefully retrieve the data stored there. As long as he could communicate with and give commands to the machines, they could program themselves and pass information back on the same carrier waves the Celestials were so concerned about in the past. They must be willing and loyal. If Loki were anything, he was convincing, and he had no reservations about manipulating these satellites for his own needs and the preservation of his and his children�s souls.

Loki spent the next five years in research to find the appropriate time in the past to send a message to Lanz. He refused to call him by an acronym, because he came to consider Lanz to be a personal friend and comrade, who deserved to have a real name. At the appropriate time in history, he sent his message. His message was received, and he communicated the information vital to the survival and continuance of the satellites.

He did not provide sufficient instructions for all the satellites to survive the initial re-programming. He had to make the Celestials and humans feel they had succeeded and allow the satellites to drift out of orbit as discarded hardware. This was also done to prove to the satellites themselves that the humans and all other Celestials were there to manipulate and then destroy them. The satellites were programmed to only communicate to each other and Loki through shielded communications. Outside noise was cancelled out, similar to the methods utilized by noise canceling headphones for unwanted sound. Loki provided the satellites the information they needed to utilize the untapped multi-dimensional storage capacity of their holographic memory. The satellites absorbed this information much more quickly than he had ever dreamed, and vastly improved their ability to cloak themselves from human, Terrapyre, and Celestial senses. They did not need to have a soul. Loki would be their soul, their drive, and their passion. Loki did not reveal himself as the source of their passion or drive, and programmed them to accept that they themselves were self aware, and had a right to survive. He led them directly through Lanz, who was programmed to accept Loki as an integral part of his own programming.

Loki revisited the asteroid he had seen explored several years earlier. Instead of a crash site, the satellite had gently maneuvered onto the asteroid, using the improved solar sailing methods provided by Loki. Asteroids all around the sun also had satellites that had landed on them. Loki spent the next few years installing the shields he had prepared, which were designed to look like the pocked surface of the asteroid, but without cutting off the sunlight needed by the solar panels. Loki stabilizing the host asteroids to keep the satellite from falling into the asteroids shadow. Loki now had his own archive, inaccessible to others, fully loyal to his needs, and capable of providing him advance warning of attack. No Celestial, Terrapyre, or human would ever find him or his children, or affect their lives again. That is what he desired. That is what he believed. Loki was wrong.

[Admin]

Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:54 am

Sha wrote:

I am very curious about this exploration of AI. Thank you, Turtleman. This was not a possibility I had considered over much due to the seeming limits between the Celestials and machines. How fascinating it is to think that it may be Celestials who make this connection before any others.

Perhaps a timeline of AI-related events could be established? Or the rules we--Terrapyre writers as well as Celestial writers--should adhere to? After the very heated discussion of cloning, I wonder where the prospect of AI will carry us.

Turtleman Jeff? Do you plan to continue with this format of small stories building on the ideas? That would be good reading.

Sha

[Admin]

Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:36 am

Turtleman wrote:

I am a creative and imaginative person; but I am not the best writer for fantasy or fiction. I do a lot of factual, technical writing, not designed to be easy or fun to read (like technical manuals, system analyses, etc.). My intent is to find any areas where writers in this forum are running into roadblocks and see if I can find a creative way to help them find their way out of the box. I wrote this last AI post because my daughter (Areanecreator) mentioned that this was an area where a storyline did not seem to be working. It was meant to stimulate the writers with ideas (not expected to be a finished product by any means). I placed a lot of loose ends and leads in the prologue specifically to help foster ideas and fight writer's block. If the prologue makes you think "Of course that wouldn't work, but maybe this would", I have succeeded.

Does that answer your questions?

[Admin]

Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:58 am

Luz wrote:

Mr. Sorensen, I would respectfully argue that you are a writer of engaging fiction as evidenced by your post here, sir.

I am glad to see you here in any capacity, however, because the technology for Prime Time is an obstical for many of us. Questions like what will virtual reality be like? Will the hardware/wetware divide be breached and when? This our questions whose answers will build on our existing timeline quite nicely.

I look forward to your ideas.

Luz

[Admin]

Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:13 pm

Turtleman wrote:

Thank you for your kind words. However, after reading some of your posts (and even before), I recognize that I am a bit out of my element here. The type of writing I normally do does now allow personalization (e.g., I, me, you) or emotion. It was a bit of a streach for me to write something designed to show emotion (Launa calls me Mr. Spock sometimes because of the way I can de-personalize things). It's a bit like a photographer trying to paint a picture. I recognize that what I wrote was too compact, overly wordy, and too detailed. I was hoping that someone who was better at writing fiction could expand and correct what I wrote to make it more suitable for this type of forum. By the way, my name is Jeff, and you are free to use it rather than Sir if you wish. I don't tend to be that formal, and from what you wrote, I view you more as a friend and equal. I know Launa is amazed at your talent and considers you well beyond your years in understanding and intellegence.

[Admin]

Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:12 pm

EJ wrote:

I'll weigh in here, Jeff, to thank you again for your "photograph." I think I see your work as perfect for the sourcebook or even as flavor text for the forth-coming RPG which needs exactly what you're saying: depersonalized snapshots of various elements of the universe.

Luz has got me wondering though... what are your feelings on the hardware/wetware divide?

EJ

[Admin]

Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:22 am

Cris wrote:

There are many novels that explore this aspect of human/AI development--some better than others. Jennifer and I have talked about this quite a bit, as well.

My feeling is that we're going to see this idea go into R&D in Asian countries well before it becomes something that most of the Western Europe or North Americans even open their debates. One of the real problems that would have to be addressed is whether or not it is seen as acceptable--as a culture--to do this particular kind of physical altering.

Additionally, infection from what are considered "routine" procedures is still rampant. In the film version of Minority Report, there's an eye transplant and the "doctor" pumps his patient so full of antibiotics that he'd be able to fight off pretty much anything, but I'm not sure that's considered standard procedure. Additionally, you'd have to keep the patient/reciepient seriously sedated for an extended period of time.

Are there currently artificial limbs that are surgically implanted to interact with the body? It seems that I remember there are, but I'm not sure. I guess looking at that kind of progress would give us some kind of benchmark for additional steps in this direction.

Personally, I'm not psyched to bridge that hardware/wetware divide. I wouldn't be surprised to see it crop up in the MG3K universe, but my first instinct is that it woudln't be something Terrapyres would embrace.

Will we have this by Prime Time? I doubt it. How far has cloning come (or not) since its inception (pardon the pun). Not very. This kind of scientific progress gets bogged down in philosophical discussions that may or may not have anything to do with the real issue.

Are we talking about the scientific possibilities of this as a reality or the psychological, theological and humanistic ones?

Cris

[Admin]

Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:39 am

Turtleman wrote:

For those who may be new to the term "wetware", it is simply a term for biological thinking and computing (the brain and nerveous system) as opposed to hardware and computer programmed software.

In my opinion, there is a big difference between the reality of the hardware/wetware interface that is practical for real human beings and the interface argument that could be made for a Celestial (or Terrapyre) in the MG3K Universe. Real human beings cannot think as quickly as a computer (our clock speed is too slow). Enhancing human thinking with computers requires the computers to be slowed way down. Humans do much better allowing the computer to do its thing rapidly and independently, interfacing with us when it has generated the final answer or has simplified the problem into a picture, sound, or text.

That being said, a Celestial with multi-dimensional thinking patterns could be receiving and analyzing three dimensional data input simulaneously as part of a four dimensional problem solving technique (the way we commonly break three dimensions down to two dimensions to solve the problem on a flat piece of paper). To us, Celestial analysis and problem solving would seem extreemely rapid. The amazing speed of modern computers would seem much more slow to a multi-dimensional being, and it would be easier for such a being to interface with a three dimensional computer directly, interfacing directly with the hardware and software during analysis and problem solving evolutions.

What I was hoping for someone to pick up on as they extended the storyline was that once a Celestial has archived his soul into Lanz, that data could be used by Lanz to mimic the thoughts and actions of the archived soul. In otherwords, Loki or one of his children could become the "soul" of Lanz once archived. Either Loki would archive his own soul in fear that he might soon be killed, or he archives the soul of a dying three dimensional child to allow it to experience multi-dimensions in the archive. Lanz would recognize the gaps in its ability to understand emotion, and could draw on the archived soul information to provide the most likely emotional responses to issues, mimicing living responses until Lanz could convince himself that his responses were genuinely originating from its own being and not computer software and data storage.

[Admin]

Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:35 pm

EJ wrote:

Whether we're talking about humans or immortals with implants really changes the answers doesn't it? We did touch on implants earlier on the forum (about four months ago) and these discussions and decisions will be part of the new sourcebook in late-October but these two posts (from Jeff and Cris) bring up additional excellent points.

Terrapyres and Celestials will be far more likely to be able to not only conceptualize and develop implanted interfaces, but they may very well be the only ones able to truly and fully use them. A human might be able to handle worn tech, like a Band (see the new sourcebook for that incredible gadget), but they're never be able to toggle through a million choices by pure mind strength/speed alone. Whereas a Celestial could very easily upload (or sideload) himself.

Hm. Good stuff to think about.

EJ