Desire for the Grail and Faith

[PapaNurgle]

Summer wrote " I would say that no MG3K rpg would be complete without each character having some kind of gauge that measured how much they actually cared about the Grail. This can influence so much of their actions."

Now I have often thought of the search and fight for the grail to be something that is inherent to the character of the Player Character and as such something to be brought out in role-play and not needing a value, gauge or rule set, but I could be wrong about this. What do you think? Also if you would like a ruling on the Desire for the Grail in a character, what should it be called? How should it affect a character during play?

Would too much of a desire to get the grail run a story off track if the story was not about directly going to get the grail?

I also have a similar feeling about the idea of a rule or gauge for a character's faith in the game. I feel that with Terrapyres, they do not have faith. They have certainty. Any being, mortal or immortal, that knows without a shadow of a doubt that God is real does not have faith. Faith is believing when there is no evidence to back up your belief. Terrapyres know God intimately and personally, and as such they do not have Faith. Celestials do have religion but it is very mild, at least it is written that way in the sourcebook, and do not have any real propensity for Faith as far as I can see.

So am I wrong about Faith? Do we need a rule and gauge in the game to encompass Faith? If so what should faith do in our RPG and what would it encompass?

[Jennifer]

I believe, in terms of a Grail gauge, Summer is probably thinking about her characters Kara and Pelucir or perhaps even Eliena, Lynor or Chariklo -- all of whom have no interest whatsoever in the Grail. However, I would think a player would simply not play these characters if the campaign is Grail-focused. I am sure the game will allow for campaigns that are not Grail-focused.

In terms of faith (and a Faith Gauge), I think Launa and Abbie and perhaps Eric and Luz along with them, once spoke at great depth about this very topic: Do Terrapyres have faith? Do Celestials?

I think, in my mind, Terrapyres have belief and this belief they call faith. They have the choice how much of their visions to believe, to accept and to embrace. They have no way of *knowing* that the Grail will redeem them... they must believe, they must have faith. They can pray for guidance but they can only have faith that God will answer them in any way.

Celestials, on the other hand, have loyalty and patriotism in place of religion, in many ways. I mean, if you delve into the Celestial cultural very deeply, you will find religion but it is not religion as we know it or recognize it. In many ways, Celestial faith is in each other.

If I were creating the OS, I would have a gauge for Faith and that's how it would be defined (slightly differently for each peoples). The stronger a character's Faith, perhaps the higher an original bonus that the player could apply might be.

Jennifer

[GamerChick]

Not to argue, Jennifer, but there are some Terrapyres who walk away from God all together. I would have to say that Terrapyre faith is not 100%. They have memories of *various* strengths and details. Some are more sure than others.

As for Celestials... I agree. Their loyalty to their kind is fanatical.

Gille

[Pip]

There's a huge leap of faith required to claim the Grail and believe that it'll mean your peoples' redemption (the Terrapyres) or their deliverance from danger completely (Celestials). Neither race knows for sure what will happen.

When I read Immortal Waking: Vrej (Part Two) in the Player's Handbook... it was so powerful. Tyger is so sure of herself, of her faith... Vrej? Not so much. (I can't wait until the Crusade Battle Anthology is on sale so I can read Part One of Sha's story!)

Pip

[Cris]

As a Celestial *and* Terrapyre writer, I'd like to put my 2 cents in here.

First, just because you *know* that Christ walked this Earth and God exists, does not mean you no longer have faith. Your faith is your knowledge. Your knowledge is your faith. It's what guides you, what strengthens you, what reminds you--when the Grail slips from you hands--that your Redemption has not been hopelessly lost. This is what faith is for Terrapyres.

That being said, yes, I think Faith is a major component in this RPG. For example, Angelus' life is built around his faith. Everything he does is about his connection to Christ. His Faith score would be very high and would influence the power of his Prayers (as weapons) as well as the power of any object that serves as armor that is directly connected to Faith (e.g. a cross, a cross tattoo, etc.)

Jared and Penelope, whose lives are dedicated to finding holy relics, would have a high Faith score.

Alison's Faith score, on the other hand, might be somewhere in the middle and Kara's (Summer's original character) would be quite low.

I agree that there are going to be some Terrapyres who walk away from their faith. Terrapyres are part human, after all, and humans have doubts. These characters are *individuals* whose lives and experiences shape them tremendously just as we are shaped by ours. We must look at each character individually with creating this attribute (score?) sorry, I don't think I'm completely up on the lexicon.

As for the Celestials... Just because we have not explored Celestial faith does not mean it does not exist. All sentient life forms ask the questions Who am I? Who made me? Why here? Why now? What is my purpose? The Celestials are an incredibly intelligent, thoughtful and complex race and we do them a disservice if we dismiss them as lacking Faith.

I agree that their Faith might be tied more directly to the solidarity they feel to their own kind (Provincial first--because I think that this loyalty does remain even after unification--and to Hom and other Celestials second). Those Celestials who search for the Grail with single-minded passion would have a higher Faith score. In this context (the RPG), their Faith score should be based on how dedicated they are to destroying the Grail.

Eris, for example, has his own agenda. His Faith score might be on the low side. Whereas Celestial soldiers who volunteered to come to Earth to find out what the heck was going on might well have a much higher Faith score because the destruction of Hom is fresh in their minds. They are angry. They are determined. These are the kinds of things that should be considered when setting out Faith scores for Celestials.

Perhaps we should have a thread where we talk about the characters who are going to be in the RPG and the writers who have been designated "official" experts on the characters would provide a Faith score (x out of 10?) as well as explain why they feel this way. For the other characters, we could discuss, given how they have been presented thus far in the mythology.

Cris

[PapaNurgle]

Thank you all for your thoughts. With what I have read here there is truly a need for a Faith Attribute at least for Terrapyres. These wonderful and majestic creatures, while having a certain connection with God, must decide for themselves "Do I Believe?". How truly human of them. I must admit I would love to have the certainty that I feel Terrapyres should have.
In the discussions above I get the feeling that Prayers should be lessened or strengthened by the Faith of the Terrapyre and therefore such an Attribute should be given along with the section on Prayers. I will work on this.

Now we have seen what Chris has thought about Celestial Faith. Are there any others that want to sound off about this?
Should Celestials have a Faith Attribute and if so, what 'powers' should be placed in realm of their Faith?

Remember this is for posterity so try to be precise. ;D

[EJ]

Oh wow... great question, Matthew. I'll pm all our Celestial writers now and ask them to come weigh in.

My thoughts are this: Celestials have an intense faith in each other and their culture. This idea actually drives the central "villian" of MG3K (Eris). I suppose one would call this patriotism or even ultruism but I think Celestials would call it faith.

I think Terrapyre Faith (as in a Faith score) would effect how well they use Prayers, absolutely, and also their chance at harnessing the Grail, sensing the Grail, locating the Grail.

For Celestials, I think their Faith score would effect all that same stuff about the Grail but also effect how much they can aide each other.

In the mythology, that's one of the big issues that people used to talk about constantly on the forum (correct or incorrect): Terrapyres are all about themselves and Celestials are all about each other.

EJ

[artzygrrl]

There's lots of different kinds of faith - though I absolutely see where you are coming from, Papa Nurgle...you're right, the Terrapyres don't need faith to believe God exists. In this they are different from humans.

But, do they have faith? Definitely. They are still half-human, and don't have all the answers. Just because you KNOW God exists or believe it (even as a human) does not mean you think he has your best interests at heart. Believe me, I know many people like that.

With Terrapyres, it's a faith in God's protection, in his plan, in his character that they must have. They know God's there. They've seen the evidence. They have to choose to believe that it's all true and that they're not misinterpreting God's character.

The Israelites in the Old Testament of the Bible literally saw miracles on an enormous, incredible scale. Yet, they spent 40 years wandering in the wilderness because they complained and didn't trust God to do and be what he'd promised. They saw the cloud, the fire, they saw the Egyptian army get crushed in the Red Sea, those things did not require faith. But when it came time to trust God for things they couldn't see? They pretty much crashed and burned.

So, yes, Terrapyres need faith. Not in God's existence, but in his character. And in the Grail that hovers between this universe and the next. Hoping that somehow they can be redeemed for the sins of the past.

I can't say much about Celestials but they seem to be more about facts and ideas than about faith. More like an entire force working toward a common cause.

[Launa]

Hmm. You know, when talking about faith in the Celestial society, I absolutely do believe that a Celestial's faith in each other is big. But... I think there is something else as well.

Through working with Ganymede, Chariklo, Pandora and (with permission from their official writers) Eris, Orcus, Eliena and Lynor and reading pieces like Immortal Dreaming and even some of the fiction in Crusade, I find that a Celestial's faith in the mission can also be on a scale. Their faith in the quest to destroy the Grail, yes, but also their faith in... whatever they're working toward. Their faith in whatever they feel is best for their people/home. For some, like Ganymede or Pandora, this is their faith in the search for the Grail. For Chariklo, this may be his faith in his quest to find his family, which he does consider his people. (which he has great, all-consuming faith in) For Eris, this may be his faith in returning Hom to the world it was before unification. Even "villians" can have great faith. Isn't the most deadly opponent one who firmly believes in what they are doing?

I think a Celestial's faith (and yes, I think that word fits here, if you define faith in the classic sense of "Faith is a hope for things which are not seen which are true.") depends on their goal. How dedicated are they to it? Do they still believe in the work they're doing? Ganymede, for example, lives to obtain the grail most of the time but, in all honesty, for much of her life her heart is not really in it. She struggles with the hope that her world will be made a better place through war. Her faith score would be fairly low. Chariklo, however, I think has enormous faith... it's just not in helping the Homidus. His faith lies with his people, yes, but his people are not Celestials. Still, I think that his faith score should be high. He is driven. He would be intensely dangerous if someone hindered his goal to find his family.

I'm not very experienced with RPG games, but could we allow a Celestial to declare a goal, a focus (most of the time it would, probably, be "obtain the Grail") and then set their faith score accordingly? Default could be, of course, obtaining the Grail. But then more advance or mythology-driven RPGers could change it up from time to time.

Terrapyres gather their strength through their faith. Celestial gather their strength through their passion to do what they feel is best for their world/people (again, which may or may not be Hom.) To keep the stats seperate, we could use "Faith" and "Altruism." I'm just afraid that the Celestial's sense of altruism may be incredibly varied.

[Guine]

I have not read every post here at the forum in many months but I have read the sourcebook very many times. It talks in the sourcebook about Celestial religion and a legend of a five dimensional Great Archivist. I play a Celestial character name of Hydra and he prays often to the Great Archivist. More than anything he prays that he will be interesting enough to be Archived by the Great Archivist and to then live forever.

Guine

[EJ]

If anyone would like to follow or join a discussion of Homidin faith, join us here:

www.mardigras3000.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=celestials&action=display&thread=325

[Cris]

Sept 30, 2009 12:25:20 GMT -8 Launa said:

Hmm. You know, when talking about faith in the Celestial society, I absolutely do believe that a Celestial's faith in each other is big. But... I think there is something else as well.

Through working with Ganymede, Chariklo, Pandora and (with permission from their official writers) Eris, Orcus, Eliena and Lynor and reading pieces like Immortal Dreaming and even some of the fiction in Crusade, I find that a Celestial's faith in the mission can also be on a scale. Their faith in the quest to destroy the Grail, yes, but also their faith in... whatever they're working toward. Their faith in whatever they feel is best for their people/home.

That's basically what I've said. Their faith is in their culture, their species and their homeworld.

I think a Celestial's faith (and yes, I think that word fits here, if you define faith in the classic sense of "Faith is a hope for things which are not seen which are true.") depends on their goal. How dedicated are they to it? Do they still believe in the work they're doing? Ganymede, for example, lives to obtain the grail most of the time but, in all honesty, for much of her life her heart is not really in it. She struggles with the hope that her world will be made a better place through war. Her faith score would be fairly low. Chariklo, however, I think has enormous faith... it's just not in helping the Homidus. His faith lies with his people, yes, but his people are not Celestials. Still, I think that his faith score should be high. He is driven. He would be intensely dangerous if someone hindered his goal to find his family.

I think that taken in an arbitrary way (e.g. Angelus would have a high faith score; Chariklo would have a high faith score) Terrapyres and Celestials parallel each other here.

I'm not very experienced with RPG games, but could we allow a Celestial to declare a goal, a focus (most of the time it would, probably, be "obtain the Grail") and then set their faith score accordingly? Default could be, of course, obtaining the Grail. But then more advance or mythology-driven RPGers could change it up from time to time.

I think if you do some research on classic RPGs and the way campaigns are set up it will shed some light on what you're trying to get at here. Do that and then ask your question again.

Cris

[Leigh]

On the topic of the altruism:

faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/1ovrmany.htm