Post Prime Time: Cloning and Genetic Engineering

[Admin]

Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:49 pm

NinjaJess wrote:


I'm going to reopen this topic. I know that it was lost when the crazy stuff happened to the forum during the upgrade so I'll try to summerize. Then, maybe Cris can re-find the articles she posted that she found on the web? They were about cloning in our current day. About creating life to harvest stem cells. Life created, if I remember correctly, without the need of ovm or sperm.

Cris posted the article and Angel was very articulate and upset about the ramifications of cloning being used to create a class system -- a "we are real/you are not" society where clones are at the bottom of the social system. She was also concerned that life created in a test tube, or life created outside the standard sperm/ovm combination would be seen as less-than. I think all of us were touched and a little bit surprised that Angel was so driven to speak on this topic. I, for one, as a mother, was very moved. Her powerful support of all children as precious (from the moment of cell growth) was beautiful.

Angel asked all the writers to talk here at the forum before cloning was introduced into the universe so that we could avoid or addressin details the dangers that our modern day scientists are already playing with. To coin a theme from BSG, "If we create life, then it is less-than life. For we are not gods, even when we play god." Danger, danger, Will Robinson!

So, let's play. I, personally, have always been fascinated with the idea of genetic engineering and this dovetails very nicely into discussions of cloning. I have a dear friend with an autistic son, for instance. Would she have "flipped the switch" to turn off that chance (or would she noow) if she had the option?

Will humans be playing with genetic engineering in Prime Time? Will the technology be in place? We're already genetically engineering our food (everyone knows about the veggies pumped full of peanut proteins, right? Good news for vegetarians. Bad news for people allergic to peanuts.) so how close are we to genetically engineering ourselves?

Will cloning be used to grow spare body parts? Will cloning be used to create a subset of humans? Will people born of private cloning be considered second-class life? (For instance, if a man is wounded in war and cannot produce sperm. He has a baby with his wife with the ovm/skin cell combination or some other combo.)

How will either of these tracks of science effect Terrapyres? Celestials?

Jess <--- closeted science geek

[Admin]

Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:44 am

papa nurgle wrote:

First off on the idea of our real world having a class system if we began full human cloning, I have to say that yes this would happen. Unfortunately, as we have seen time and time again with our scientific endeavors that while we marvel at our intellectual prowess we see what we have created only as another tool. Should we recreate Man, even only an exact copy of one of us, we will not see that which we have created as Man, but only a tool. A man in a bottle. It is just simply our nature. Our scientific community must see full human cloning as not just an item we have made to be used. From Saulk's use of a dead virus all the way into the future of bioengineering, we must stop and look at that we have created and say what are all the implications of having this in our world. As of yet we as a global society just can not seem to do that.
With the possibility of understanding how to genetically modify a fetus, we will once again see this simply as a tool instead of looking at all of the implications that it brings. Could it halt birth defects. Yes but at what costs? What could a parent say when faced with the choice of what nature has created against what man can alter. How do we know that with the ability to reverse one supposed ailment we do not open our world up to other ailments? the truth is we just do not know enough about DNA and the ramifications of altering it to be sure, and we may not for a long time.
That will not stop us though from going and changing eye color, hair color and even skin tone. We will wring our hands with stress as we decide wether our child we be better, stronger, faster before we even get the joy of meeting and being with the child. How can we dare say that our child should be smarted? How do we know that by doing so we are not removing that child's capacity to appreciate art, play the piano, or make cool shadow puppets on the wall with their hands?

As for the MG3K world, I would suppose these things are happening. These would be great topics for discussion and exploration in this kind of fiction. With all the Celestial's knowledge of cellular structure, DNA, and advanced medical knowledge, why do they simply abandon their 3D childer on earth? As we read in the sourcebook the Celestials are going through the exact same kinds of problems we are discussing now, and having the two story arcs going in tandem might make for interesting reading.

Now when we discuss the creation of body parts, we then get into the use of stem cells and that kind of medical technology and knowledge is changing every day. Just yesterday I read that a scientific team has had a breakthrough in creating stem cells from ordinary tissue. Should this road of medical experimentation be fruitful, it would negate the need for fetal tissue, thus ending the debate about abortion its ties to stem cell research. So as you can see this is something that is changing so rapidly even science fiction is having a hard time keeping up.
I love your idea of using the skin cells and ovm to create new life for the family of a wounded soldier, that is great story material and I hope you choose to explore it a little more.

Of course all of the above is just my understanding and opinions. Please know that I in no way would want to reverse the course and the breakthroughs our medical and scientific communities have brought us. The men and women who have done such amazing things should be given our highest accolades. It is us as a society that then creates the problem.

[Admin]

Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:11 am

Cris wrote:

Quote:
So, let's play. I, personally, have always been fascinated with the idea of genetic engineering and this dovetails very nicely into discussions of cloning. I have a dear friend with an autistic son, for instance. Would she have "flipped the switch" to turn off that chance (or would she noow) if she had the option?

If given the choice now, I would have to say, No. And I guess the same goes for finding this out during the pregnancy. My feeling is that in my personal life, I think that God has a plan and that everything happens for a reason. There are no accidents. The fact that my son has autism is as much a part of him as his incredible blue eyes or his sly sense of humor. He would not be my son otherwise.

Autism is a gift, in my opinion. The trick is unlocking it. You have to identify the gift, reach it and nurture it while, at the same time, providing some basic skills for living in the world. I don't think I'd turn off autism, per say.

However, if I could have turned off the gene that would cause my daughter's pancreas to fail before she was a year old, I would do that. I see no reason to put a child through a lifetime of being a type 1 diabetic. Type 1 (insulin dependent) diabetes has nothing to do with one's eating habits, it's genetic. It's an autoimmune disease. Where did it come from? Man. Man created it and if Man can fix it, I'm fine with that.

There are no benefits to Type 1 diabetes. Whereas there are benefits to autism.

Will humans be playing with genetic engineering in Prime Time? Will the technology be in place? We're already genetically engineering our food (everyone knows about the veggies pumped full of peanut proteins, right? Good news for vegetarians. Bad news for people allergic to peanuts.) so how close are we to genetically engineering ourselves?

This is a fascinating question, Jess. If we were to take our present reality and project if forward, I would say that Americans will not be doing any genetic engineering in the foreseeable future. It just isn't politically acceptable or entirely safe in either the Republican or Democratic parties.

However, since we're not necessarily dealing with our "reality," we can rethink this. Thus far, there hasn't been a lot of progress made on cloning in that viable clones are few and far between. Perhaps by late Prime Time?

If you want to read a terrific book about genetic engineering as it pertains to plants, read "A Feeling for the Organism," which is about geneticist/biologist Barbara McClintock. It's a great intro to the concept of genetic engineering and a great read.
Quote:

Will cloning be used to grow spare body parts? Will cloning be used to create a subset of humans? Will people born of private cloning be considered second-class life? (For instance, if a man is wounded in war and cannot produce sperm. He has a baby with his wife with the ovm/skin cell combination or some other combo.)

Oh, Jess. you must read "Never Let Me Go." This explores that very question with incredible sensitivity and insight.

Cris

[Admin]

Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:32 am

EJ wrote:

I’m very encouraged to see that writers are interested and willing to tackle these issues. As my initial response to cloning showed, I have serious concerns for the state of society. The idea that life (the dividing/growth of cells) can be created from the skin cells of two people (no ovum or sperm were involved) is terrifying to me -- *not* because I think “only God can create life” but because already the reporter and scientists were referring to the “cluster of cells” as inanimate. Soulless. Nonlife.

How simple or complex is the human mind, truly? Can it be mapped and digitized or recreated? How complex or simple is human response? Can empathy, self-awareness, irrational/emotional response, be programmed?

Where does the human soul reside? Is it hidden in our connective, cognitive tissues nestled among gray matter? Does it ride the synaptic fires in our body like Tlaloc or Zeus rode lightning?

So I suppose this is when I need to focus us and make a list of events so we can officiate the MG3K position on each topic. I’ll stay in Prime Time so that people can logically backtrack or flash forward according to their era. I see the list as:

1) Will there be human replication? Meaning, the creation of duplicates. For what ends and by what means?

2) Will there be human manufacturing? Meaning, the creation of unique single-donor or double-donor human beings without the use of sperm or ovum.

3) Somewhere between replication and manufacturing, will the creation of human blanks (where bodies are kept brainless) for organ and/or limb harvesting be allowed?

4) Will the mind be digitized?

5) Will genetic alterations, *anywhere in the world,* be mastered and/or allowed on unborn children through electro-pulse treatments in utero?

6) Will genetic alternations, again anywhere, be mastered and/or allowed on mature humans?

Specific opinions on these events? Please respond with the number of the event to make it easy to track and fold into the new sourcebook once officiated.

Other events to add to the master list? Let’s hear ‘em

EJ

[Admin]

Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:38 am

EJ wrote:

“Matt writes: 'With all the Celestial's knowledge of cellular structure, DNA, and advanced medical knowledge, why do they simply abandon their 3D children on earth? As we read in the sourcebook the Celestials are going through the exact same kinds of problems we are discussing now, and having the two story arcs going in tandem might make for interesting reading.' ”

Matt, I won’t do this topic justice so I’m going to ask Launa to address it in depth but let me say this little bit:

The topic of 3D Celestials is most certainly a fascinating one. It mirrors the mysteries of human autism and presents a realistic picture of what might occur should four dimensional beings leave their environ for generations. It also allows several of our writers to explore the differing approaches to this “3Dism” and the prejudice that will rise among Celestials in light of it. This is important because it plays on the historical differences between Celestials back before the Grail first dropped on Hom when the provinces were still closed. Certain Celestials saw themselves as better than others. After Unity this was harder to support (like with Sneetches!) but when the 3D epidemic hits a peak, this is a way for that ancient ugliness to rise to the surface again.

Coming back around:

The Celestials by no means abandon their 3D children on Earth. They are furiously studying, trying to find out why and how etc. They have trained and entrusted Caretakers. They have fought among themselves for rights for these children. Pholus, in “Immortal Dreaming,” is writing to his 3D son, a relationship explored painfully but joyfully as well in the novel Pholus forthcoming in 2010. The entire 3D Celestial topic is close to my heart and it does indeed mirror not just autism but the way a society – any society -- defines life. So, in short, I agree, Matt. That line of comparison would be fascinating in a story.

Launa? Can you please add in any details I may have missed in terms of 3D Celestials on Earth? General facts etc?

EJ

[Admin]

Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:40 am

AreaneCreator wrote:

My answer is also over in the Celestial section.

I'll answer in both places, then.

Celestial response to 3D Celestials is pretty varied, but a Celestial, as EJ said, would never abandon their children. Most Celestials stay near their children and allow them to be raised by hand-picked human caretakers. (as a 3D Celestial can't go into an outpost). Some have parental contact with these children, others don't.

Some, as EJ mentioned take a more active role. As time goes by, the nature of the 3Ding of Celestials become more apparent. Small, connected sects of Celestials begin to research the disease by studying a particular kind of tree frog that is being affected on earth similarly to how Celestials are being affected. They are trying to create a cure. This, of course, led to the sterilization movement in the 2060s (right dates, EJ?).

Celestials are extremely parental creatures. Children are precious, and must be protected and cared for above all else. This is why the vast majority of Celestials wouldn't even hurt a Terrapyre or human child. They would always put the needs of their child first (though what those needs are depends on the Celestial. For example, the sterilization movement, when many Celestials had their children sterilized to help the species and keep the disease from spreading.)

Does this help? Need any more specific information? I love talking about the Celestials

[Admin]

Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:01 pm

Cris wrote:

Here's one of the cloning articles that was on the forum previously: I've highlighted one of the sections that's particularly interesting.

July 2007
Sperm Used To Clone Male Genome
by Kate Melville

A man's low sperm count often means that fertility treatment involves locating a single viable sperm and injecting it into the egg. But that technique may become redundant now that researchers have succeeded in cloning the male genome from a single sperm.

Professor Takumi Takeuchi, of Weill Medical College, injected a single healthy mouse sperm into a mouse egg from which the nucleus had been removed, and by doing so effectively cloned the male genome. Reporting his findings at the annual conference of the European Society of Human Reproduction and Embryology, Takeuchi said the process worked well and the sperm genome was found to be chromosomally identical to its originator in over 80 percent of the clones analyzed.

The resulting cloned cells were then fused with an egg and allowed to develop into blastocysts, where each early embryo contains between 70 and 100 cells. "Sixty-four blastocysts were transferred to 6 foster-mother mice, and so far 4 offspring have grown into normal adults", said Takeuchi, "therefore proving that it is possible to replicate the male genome, and that such a cloned genome has the ability to develop to term."

Takeuchi cautioned, however, that the level of abnormalities occurring in offspring was the same as that found in cloned animals, meaning the procedure is still some way from clinical use. "We are a long way from the time when this will be able to be used in humans. There is much work still to be done to understand why impaired development and abnormalities in the embryo occur, and to take steps to avoid that occurrence," he noted.

Takeuchi's team are now investigating whether they can make the procedure more efficient by enhancing the number of mouse pups obtained by a single sperm, and thus reducing embryo wastage. "We believe that replication of the male genome, in addition to providing hope for infertile couples, could also provide the opportunity to use replicates of the sperm nucleus for diagnostic purposes. If you only have one healthy sperm you would be reluctant to use it for anything but fertilization. But with this technique it should be possible to create enough to be sure that the embryo which is implanted is healthy," he said.

Takeuchi is coy about ethical implications but believes that because the work aims at preserving the contribution of both parents to the generation of embryos, it should not elicit a negative reaction.

www.scienceagogo.com/news/20070603213746data_trunc_sys.shtml

[Admin]

Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:06 pm

Cris wrote:

Here's a second one. Again I've highlighted some aspects that might be interesting to MG3K's universe.

21 June 2005
Eggs And Sperm Made From Stem Cells
by Kate Melville

Scientists in the UK now claim it is entirely possible that eggs and sperm can be created from human embryonic stem cells (HESCs), and experiments conducted in at least two other countries appear to either complement or support this claim.

Representatives from the UK, Belgium and Australia presented their research on HESCs at the 21st annual European Society for Human Reproduction and Embryology conference, held on Monday the 20 June. Collectively, their research shows that the groundwork for therapeutic cloning and assisted reproduction has been laid.

People concerned with the ethical dilemmas associated with HESC research should especially take note of these latest developments. Behrouz Aflatoonian, a PhD student in Professor Harry Moore's laboratory at the Center for Stem Cell Biology, University of Sheffield, UK, believes that the research solves the practical and ethical problems associated with obtaining human samples of primordial germ cells (PGCs), which are the ancestral cells that eventually form eggs and sperm (gametes).

At the conference, Professor Moore said, "if we could produce eggs from HESCs they could also be used for therapeutic cloning (somatic nuclear replacement) circumventing the need for eggs from patients who donate them, as this is a major limitation of this technique at the moment. We would then have completed the circle of making HESCs from eggs that came from HESCs - what came first the chicken or the egg?!" This is significant, since the potential to create more stem cells for further research may mean improved treatments for patients suffering from a range of diseases.

Of course, revolutionary findings such as these are almost always grounded in a quagmire of reality. It's not that the science isn't possible, Moore and his PhD candidate have witnessed embryonic bodies "expressing" some of the genes found in human PGCs within a two week period. However, Mr. Aflatoonian says that embryoid bodies can separate into many tissue types, so deciding on which cells to develop into PGCs and how to encourage them to grow into gametes could still prove to be a puzzle. "Producing functional gametes is much more difficult, because we have to recreate for the cultured cells the environment of the developing follicle for egg development or the tissue of the testis for sperm," said Mr. Aflatoonian.

Fret not Mr. Aflatoonian. It seems that other researchers from around the world are also working toward similar ends. A research team led by Dr. Orly Lacham-Kaplan, from the Monash Immunology and Stem Cell Laboratories, Australia, has developed a simple, repeatable system to support the development of embryonic stem cells into ovarian structures containing eggs. So far the system has only involved mouse embryonic stem cells. The intention is to use the new system to develop eggs for sterile women that contain the women's own genetic material, where an egg's genetic material is removed and replaced with that of a sterile woman." Some people just don't have eggs or sperm and there's little we can do for them except use donor material. The ability to develop eggs in vitro could primarily assist sterile women but could also reduce the ongoing strain on donor egg programs," said Dr. Lacham-Kaplan's.

It seems certain, then, that Dr. Lacham-Kaplan would have found the research of a Belgian team of scientists at the conference very interesting. Bjorn Heindryckx, a PhD student at the Infertility Centre at Ghent University Hospital, Belgium, and his colleagues, claimed that they are the first to use a system similar to the one described by Dr. Lacham-Kaplan. First, the nuclear apparatus that holds the genetic information and chromosomes of an oocyte (egg cell) is removed. The team then injects the empty oocyte with the nuclei taken from somatic cumulus1 cells (i.e. non-germ cells) of another person - a process known as non-autologous nuclear transfer. After time for nuclear re-programming the oocytes were artificially activated by incubation in a medium containing calcium ionophore, which enabled the injected nucleus to prepare for the first embryonic division. This is apparently the "first report describing the development of cloned human embryos using in vitro matured oocytes and non-autologous transfer via a conventional method of nuclear transfer," said Mr. Heindryckx.

The Belgian, Australian and UK scientific teams all consider therapeutic human cloning as a means of sustaining further research into genetic defects and for the treatment of infertile couples. However, the research also allows investigation into how both the ovary and testis develops. Professor Moore believes that this is an important part of the research as, "Many scientists believe that environmental chemical pollutants that mimic the action of hormones (so called endocrine disrupting chemicals) might interfere with human development at this stage and cause congenital abnormalities, infertility and possibly cancer (in particular testicular cancer). By developing suitable tests with embryonic stem cells as they differentiate to germ cells we can investigate the action of these chemicals in the laboratory." All the teams involved said that the developments occurred in the lab, and that practical applications are likely a long way off.

www.scienceagogo.com/news/20050521211846data_trunc_sys.shtml

[Admin]

Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:49 am

EJ wrote:

Okay. I feel brave tonight... bold even I've avoided it until now. I've even gone off on the topic in general and gotten all emotional about it and showed my colorful chick side. But the time has come to face the fact that we're writing in a SF world and this *will* be an issue:

CLONING

In Prime Time: During this era we will likely see grafting/growing of replacement parts en masse. We will see the need for donors disappear. Infertility will be bye-bye. We will also see the legalizing of inanimate (but alive) zimbos for medical testing. We *will* see designer babies in this time period (the ability to choose many factors of your baby -- see "Endless Universe" for some examples -- from looks to innate abilities) however, Terrapyres would not, by and large, engage in this practice.

After 2060 (say 2075): Will we see the legalization of meat puppets for dangerous and fatal jobs such as deep space, under sea, all wars, etc. Give this fifty years and we'll see some kind of organized movement to elevate the MP (or Hujects) to a more "equal" status.

Good starting point?

EJ

[Admin]

Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:37 am

JenDiMarco wrote:

"We will also see the legalizing of inanimate (but alive) zimbos for medical testing."

EJ? Can you define zimbos? I'm afraid your vocabulary for hard SF is larger than most of us on the forum.

"We *will* see designer babies in this time period (the ability to choose many factors of your baby -- see "Endless Universe" for some examples"

I read "Endless Universe" when I was about ten. Good basic SF. Babies were purchased in stasis in giant warehouses. They were sorted by skin, eye and hair color as well as muscle type penchant and abilities like apatitude in music (by instrument), sports, dance, song, math, writing, science, etc. The harder the ability (Hard abilities: engineering, math, science. Soft abilities: anything in the arts.) the more expensive the baby. Hope this helps for folks who may not be able to find the book (only ever published in mass market in 1982, I believe).

"After 2060 (say 2075): We will see the legalization of meat puppets for dangerous and fatal jobs such as deep space, under sea, all wars, ... the MP (or Hujects) to a more "equal" status."

Meat Puppets, MP and Hujects are all the same thing, yes? Define, please, in contrast to Zimbos? Thanks!

Jennifer <-- very demanding